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Descore
descore Posted - 4 February 2002 17:13
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Check the review of Merchant Empires by Seldum.
He gave it "1" just because he thinks it's a rip-off
of Space Merchant (which it is not, btw, since it was
largely developed in parallel with SM and has now
evolved far beyond it). What a lamer.
Btw when are you mpogd'ers going to review it :)
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 6 February 2002 8:26
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It is now clear that Descore is the true lamer.
Runelord
runelord Posted - 6 February 2002 12:25
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It is now clear that either Descor, Montana_Mike and
me are master lamers.
MontanaMike
montanamike Posted - 6 February 2002 13:57
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And here I thought maybe folks had forgot about me,
good to see I am still loved.
For the record, ME was NOT developed at the same time
as SM-it came long afterwards. Had Shareplay not
folded its doors, a lawsuit would have been filed
against the developers of ME who blatantly ripped off
SM. ME's only credit is it survived, SM did not. To
steal code and ideas, rewrite it in whatever fasion,
then declare it open source was and remains illegal
under copywrite law. Unfortunetly, it takes filing a
lawsuit, hiring lawyers, and proving damages to incur
penalties.
Lameness is still lameness, and the original review
hit it on the head.
raven
raven Posted - 6 February 2002 15:55
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"folded its doors"
gotta hate it when you mix up 2 sayings
Descore
descore Posted - 8 February 2002 12:33
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MontanaMike (I will not bother to say You Lamer), no
code was taken from Space Merchant (it is written in a
completely different language and closed source!) Ok
before this degenerates into flame war let me make
some points clear:
YES, SM started before ME and some ideas were
certainly taken from SM, but Unreal also took some
ideas from Quake and so on.
There is NOTHING wrong about taking ideas from other
games, as long as you write it yourself, so they could
have just gone right ahead and sued if they wanted to
waste their own time and money.
Apart from that, ME is Open Source and so everybody
can get the code and even develop their own games
based on it if they want - and it's free.
Also the whole development team is new and has nothing
to do with the original developer.
The game has evolved far from what Space Merchant was
and many of our players who have come from SM are now
saying that ME is better than SM ever was.
Also the ME admins are dedicated spending their own
money and time only to be rewarded by positive
comments from the players. None of them are in it for
the money (of which there are none, only expenses).
Unlike SM, AdvancedPowers OpenME will always be free
from banner ads and compulsory payments, or other
attempts at making profits at the expense of the
players.
There. 'Nuff said.
hyrle
hyrle Posted - 8 February 2002 13:26
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I can settle this arguement: Space trading games suck.
:P
qwoozy
qwoozy Posted - 8 February 2002 13:41
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dont go bringing in Unreal into this, unreal is
canadian: quake is not. Unreal was a bunch of things
and it has no relation to quake.
And yes, trading games suck.
Xile
xile Posted - 8 February 2002 13:48
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Umm, actually I think his comparison of Unreal to
Quake is quite valid. Although it would be more
accurate to compare all FPS games to Castle
Wolfenstein. All others borrowed the concept from that
game.
Gamer620
gamer620 Posted - 8 February 2002 15:5
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First of all. Unreal and Quake use different Gaming
engines which makes for a completely different game.
IN myopinion all space trading games are the same damn
thing. Unreal and Quake are 2 completely different
games that are the same Genre of game. Are you going
to start and say Nox is a rip-off of Diablo? Both
action RPGs, yet two completely different games. If a
game involves its own Engine, idea, and story than it
has nothing to compare it too. If you were to check
the coding of both games, youd see a significantly
different number of lines, ideas, descriptions, and
everything.
Oh and just to add... There are developers that BUY
current engines to build other games, which are
similar yet still different in many ways. Quake 3 and
Alice, Quake 3 And wolfenstein. Half-life and
counterstrike(cant believe i used that example) but
you get my drift...With money you can make a
completely different game using less coding :)
Edited by - Gamer620 on 2/8/2002 3:07:21 PM
BaShildy
bashildy Posted - 8 February 2002 18:22
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I thought Unreal was co-developed in the U.S. and
Canada. Epic is now in Raleigh, NC if i'm not
mistaken.
Kevin "BaShildy" King
- Game Programmer
- MPOGD
Xile
xile Posted - 8 February 2002 22:21
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Well, what we're mostly talking about here is concept,
not engine. No matter what the engine, the concepts
are the same.I'm fully aware of the differences in
engines as well as licensing an engine for use.
anyway, this is way off topic.
Elvis F
elvis f Posted - 9 February 2002 6:18
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As a player of the former Space Merchant and current
player of Advanced Powers I would like to clear things
about this absurd argument in an impartial way.
1) First at all Space Merchant (SM) was never an
original game because it was based in the classic
TradeWars2002. Space Merchant was a rewritten version
of Trade Wars (which is the original space trading
game and is text based) with many improvements. In
other words SM is a game similar to Trade Wars 2002
using a different and updated engine.
2) Brian's Merchant Empires (ME) as it was originally
developed, was a blatant and poor copy of SM. Even the
names of ships and races were identic to the ones in
SM. Features and items were shamelessly replicated. No
defense here. Brian's Merchant Empire was a pathetic
copy of SM.
3) Fortunately Brian's ME died soon. Because Brian
made ME open source, a group of newcomers decided to
develop a new space trading game called Advanced
Powers. This game is based directly on ME and
therefore indirectly in Space Merchant but it is not a
clone or rip off of SM. The developers have no
responsability for Brian's previous actions. AP was
written with all goodwill as an original game from the
beginning and it has evolved up to the point where it
has very few common features with ME and literally
nothing related to SM.
4) Advanced Powers is a very upgraded and developed
version of the "space trading"genre which SM, ME, AP,
TDZK and many other games belong. Certainly in many
features AP is very superior to what Space Merchant
ever was. SM was a great game but because financial
problems faced by the owners they stopped developing
the game a long time ago and now it pales in
comparison to more recent and complex games like TDZK
and Advanced Powers.
5) Accusing the new games of being clones of SM is an
absurd. All those games share common characteristics
because they belong to the same genre. But there is
not fault on that. Same-genre games are usually pretty
similar: Planetarion, Utopia, Canon and others are
quite similar games but nobody with a little common
sense would say that they are all clones.
6) Montana Mike's bad attitude towards Advanced
Powers, TDZK and almost every space trading game out
there is derived of several factors. Mike
unfortunately has always being childish and inmature
in his behaviour and there is abundance of anecdotes
to tell about how hot head he can be. Mike's hate for
ME is based in his personal grudge with a former SM
player which helped in the development of ME. It was
further exacerbated by his personal grudge with
Charles Rector who back then was a critic of SM and
supporter of ME. Unfortunately Montana Mike, immature
as he is decided to make his grudge extensive to every
and any space trading game and every and any person
involved in such kind of games.
7) All this explains why he insults and attacks to
TDZK and AP which have nothing to do with Mike's
personal obsessions about SM's clones. Perhaps the
reason of Montana Mike's irreflexive attitude comes
from the bitterness and frustration of knowing that SM
is dead and buried but TDZK, AP and others games are
well and growing. As I said before this is not a
surprise for those who know him. Mike has always being
irreflexive and imprudent, unable to see other
peoples' point of view, used to kick the table, attack
players, whine to the game administrators, make a
public drama and leave the game, etc when things are
not as he wants or people don't bow to his every
wish..
8) As a last comment it must be said that
unfortunately Mike is biased and ilogical. He attacks
TDZK and AP for being SM clones (which they aren't)
but on the other side he supports another SM "clone"
called Space Merchant Realms which is literally trying
to replicate all the features of the original SM. Even
SMR's site is a perfect copy of SM's website.
Certainly there is nothing wrong or illegal with SM
Realms since the original SM is dead and let's hope
Mr. Spock will be succesfull with his project, but
Montana Mike's attitude of attacking Advanced Powers
and TDZK and at the same time supporting SMR is to say
the least very hypocrythal. Using this kind of double
standards and "Do as I tell you, not as I do" attitude
is well typical of Mike and all those who know him can
certainly give testimony.
Mike's posts must be taken as what they are: immature
ramblings from somebody who certainly with his age and
profession should have a more mature and equlibrated
behaviour.
Gamer620
gamer620 Posted - 9 February 2002 11:59
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Obviously concepts are always going to be alike. IT is
the engines that change the game. You cant make Quake
not speak wolfenstein somehow. But its the engine that
the game uses that changes it.
yamo
yamo Posted - 9 February 2002 11:59
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anyone know how long me has been/ will be down?
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 9 February 2002 19:25
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Edited by - Montana_Mike on 2/20/2002 12:41:10 PM
Chrono11901
chrono11901 Posted - 9 February 2002 19:42
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HAIL DIASPORA!
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 10 February 2002 10:50
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Is mpogd 'Elvis F' the same 'Elvis Fett' that was
kicked out of the Space Merchant game, both by the
users as well as by the admins?
If so, Elvis Fett clearly is demonstrating his
bitterness and frustration of knowing that he well
never be will welcome anywhere by prior SM players and
admins. This is not a surprise for those who know him.
Mr Briggs has always being irreflexive and imprudent,
unable to see other peoples' point of view, used to
kick the table, attack players, whine to the game
administrators, make a public drama and leave the
game, etc when things are not as he wants or people
don't bow to his every wish.
Mr Briggs' (aka Elvis Fett) posts must be taken as
what they are: immature ramblings from somebody who
certainly with his age and profession should have a
more mature and equlibrated behaviour.
By the way, what alias are you using in ME/AP? I
wonder if they already suspect who you truly are by
your bad behavior.
wizard1
wizard1 Posted - 10 February 2002 11:55
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Montana Mike do you play ME?
---
- Game Dev Guy
@ advancedpowers.com
MontanaMike
montanamike Posted - 11 February 2002 10:13
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First off, this is the real MM, the one with the
underscored name has decided to take my name to bash
various folks. For the longest time I suspected it was
good old Elvis Fett but my understanding it's some
loser in California with nothing else better to do.
What's funny here is he decided to bash good buddy EF
for me. Got to thank you there.
Now, lets try this one more time. I recommend you
visit some on-line copywrite law sites specifically
releated to code. What you will find will surprise
you. The only reason Advanced powers, tdzk, and SMR
aren't sued is because Shareplay is gone. Part of
Jonathon's selling point when he was trying to sell SM
were these lawsuits, along with one against Gameloft
for breach of contract.
Good to see you around still EF, by the way--how's the
drinking and did you manage to find a job yet?
Descore
descore Posted - 11 February 2002 16:58
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Lol MontanaMike (the real one, without _).. You claim
to know an awful lot about copyright law and you can't
even spell it right :)
Listen, copyright can apply to a work such as source
code, artwork etc. but not to a concept or even to
good ideas for game features. While these can also be
protected in some cases it comes under the patent laws
and has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with copyright, as
long as the new game represents an original work (ie.
source code, artwork etc. are not copied directly),
and they don't violate trade marks.
Even assuming that the Shareplay people had indeed
taken out one or more patents (though I wonder for
what), and if they would prove to be valid), it would
not help since the ME server is located in a country
that does not reckognize software patents.
The only other thing they could have sued about would
be if they had taken out design protection, and in
that case only if ME had copied their artwork - which
they didn't, the artwork AND source code of ME was in
fact an original work.
So although it may at the time have looked like an SM
ripoff there is absolutely nothing they could have
done through the courts, and if they have been advised
otherwise they either had bad counsel or their legal
aides didn't have all / correct information about the
case.
Wyndo
wyndo Posted - 11 February 2002 17:5
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That's not necessarily true. A work doesn't have to
"use the same source code" to infringe on a copyright.
This gets into "look and feel" disputes, when things
like Tetris clones infringe on Tetris' copyright (the
Tetris Company, at least a few years go, was really
targetting makers of Tetris close). Years ago, there
was a case involving The Print Shop (the popular
banner/card designer), and another similar product.
One or the other used quite a few terms that were
identical to the other, and it was determined in court
that there was no compelling reason the software
needed to express its buttons/messages in exactly the
same way, and it was ruled an infringment (if I recall
-- it's been a while since I read the article). So,
thinking that it's ok to "clone" a game simply because
you programmed it from scratch *might* not get the
results in court that you think it will.
With this kind of thing, though, it's hard to say how
a decision would go. It depends on the situation, the
judges, lawyers, and people involved (or so I've
read). Not every clone might be an infringment, for
those reasons -- but it's wrong to think that *no*
clone will, merely because it uses "original" code. If
that were true, a copyright would be pretty worthless.
A major developer might spend 3 years and 5 million
dollars working on original code, problem-solving,
etc, only to be ripped off by some goon who comes
along, studies what they've done, skips the "hard"
part, and creates a free knock-off. If you think
that's perfectly fine, you don't understand Copyright
as well as you think you do. :)
Besides, you can get a copyright on a packaged product
(i.e., on a CD). Yes, you send the source code along
as well (I believe this is a requirment) - but for
large programs, it's only the first and last pages (25
of each, I believe). That doesn't mean your 800-page
program is only protected from infringment if another
person duplicated code only from those pages you
filed. ;-)
What it *seems* to come down to, in the case of
lawsuits, is which side is more convincing. A program
made from the same source code, sharing the same
features etc might be fine, where one not quite as
similar, using different source code, could be ruled
as an infringement.
Personally, I hope to stay out of the courts. We have
the copyright paperwork for Lunatix Online (search for
title "Lunatix Online" here -
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/search/cohm.html ...) and
will obtain the same for StarLock, but I just hope I
never have to deal with any clones or rip-offs. It
seems like a big mess, and a hastle to go through.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
Edited by - Wyndo on 2/11/2002 5:23:25 PM
Wyndo
wyndo Posted - 11 February 2002 17:30
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Also FYI, I did a search for "Space Merchant" at the
Library of Congress, and the closest match was a story
called "Space Merchants." It's not *necessary* to
register a copyright (you still own the copyright to
your own work), but I believe it severely limits the
kinds of damages you can claim in court.
Elvis F
elvis f Posted - 11 February 2002 20:25
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Mike wrote:
" For the longest time I suspected it was good old
Elvis Fett but my understanding it's some loser in
California with nothing else better to do. What's
funny here is he decided to bash good buddy EF for me.
Got to thank you there."
mike, pal when I said that you are a true hot head I
didn't mean you to prove me right so fast (chuckles).
Now i know you are the real mike. Only you are so easy
to fool.
Hard to believe you would be so dense as to "really"
believe that it was elvis posting just for the elvis
f" as signature. It was hard to believe you would be
so easy to fool. But ... Bang! didn't you even think
that it was too obvious to be the real elvis?. Other
guy would have think twice before jumping to the
flame, but it was enough for you to read "elvis" in
the post and see all red.
Funny thing: the 2 montanas fell for the same trick.
Seems like you have alot in common other than the
name.
mike I got news for you: It is not elvis ... it is
speef, your pal just messing with your brain. No wait
... it is not speef, it is dover the one "really"
posting .... no wait ... it is ardbeg the r-e-a-l
a-n-d t-r-u-e ardbeg, no wait it is Jonathan ..... no
wait, it is Bill Clinton looking for monica ... no way
it is me Elvis Fett after all ... no wait, it is me
THE REAL AND TRUE KING: ELVIS PRESLEY!!!
Take an advice mike: You really need to chill out
sometimes and start using your head. You are too old
to still behave like a 7th grader.
Anyway Mike, the interesting thing here is your post:
"The only reason Advanced powers, tdzk, and SMR aren't
sued is because Shareplay is gone".
You admit publically that SMR; the game that you are
supporting is a SM rip off too. That is good.
Edited by - Elvis F on 2/11/2002 8:42:57 PM
MontanaMike
montanamike Posted - 12 February 2002 10:9
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No wonder you have no friends, no life, no job and a
serious drinking problem. Prozac might help you but I
would instead go for the frontal lobotomy. Good luck
loser. Also, please say hi to Nar for me if you see
her.
Wyndo
wyndo Posted - 12 February 2002 10:32
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I think there would be a benefit to having a "reply"
area for game owners to respond to player rankings
(sort of like how Ebay allows a person to reply to
feedback). I have a player who (she says) plans to
come "tell everybody how sucky my game is" because she
had been the source of an ongoing problem which
ultimately lead to me having to ban her. Sure would be
nice to at least offer comments when rankings like
that do show up.
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 13 February 2002 14:36
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Edited by - Montana_Mike on 2/13/2002 6:58:52 PM
Wyndo
wyndo Posted - 13 February 2002 14:44
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LMAO you're such a troll. Ebay's "feedback" was used
as an example for the idea I presented - no
"comparison" was done. You're obviously a troll -- but
are you illiterate as well?
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 13 February 2002 16:8
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Better to be illiterate than illegitimate, momma's
boy.
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 15 February 2002 18:45
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So Elvis F, who are you really?
wizard1
wizard1 Posted - 16 February 2002 6:24
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advancedpowers.com is located in Sweden, and after a
consultation with legal council of our copyright and
related laws and practices, I conclude there will
never be a case, ever, against OpenME.
It's not and has not been for quite some time a Space
Merchant clone, while Bryans work was heavily
infuenced by SM, that is no longer the case.
There are much better games out there to be infuenced
and inspired by than SM ever was.
We do however listen alot to our numerous SM players,
and try to accomodate them as best we can.
Danny Froberg
Head of OpenME Project
---
- Game Dev Guy
@ advancedpowers.com
Montana_Mike
montana_mike Posted - 20 February 2002 12:46
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Besides, it would be Gameloft suing Shareplay (Space
Merchant) for breach of contract. Not the other way
around. Of course Shareplay was (and still is) worth
next-to-nothing, so Gameloft did not waste their time.
Sadly Gameloft is now also out of business, following
so many other dot-com businesses.
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